Discussion:
Where are all Java people?
(too old to reply)
Buch
2004-04-16 15:15:04 UTC
Permalink
Comparing to delphi.non-technical, it seems there is so little traffic here.
Where are all Java people?
And it's not that there are not many nontechnical issues...
Lori M Olson (TeamB)
2004-04-16 15:28:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Buch
Comparing to delphi.non-technical, it seems there is so little traffic here.
Where are all Java people?
And it's not that there are not many nontechnical issues...
And what sort of non-technical issues did you have in mind?
--
Regards,

Lori Olson (TeamB)
Buch
2004-04-16 15:38:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lori M Olson (TeamB)
And what sort of non-technical issues did you have in mind?
Oh, there are lot of them ... Now its too late (17:36 central european), but
I'll make a list and release one entry every day, or two days?
pnichols
2004-04-16 18:07:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Buch
Comparing to delphi.non-technical, it seems there is so little traffic
here. Where are all Java people?
And it's not that there are not many nontechnical issues...
First, you make the false assumption that JBuilder=Java. That is not the
case whereas Delphi=Delphi period. JBuilder is only one of many Java tools.

Second, Delphi is more of a "programming" religion. Java is more of an
Enterprise language/platform used to produce Enterprise Application
structure.

I like Delphi a lot, but let's face it, Delphi has been an IDE/Language
looking for a place and a role in the new NET/Java world. Java has no such
needs. It is the defacto standard platform being used in the
EBusiness/ECommerce Enterprise world today.

Delphi people are much more concerned over a "will Delphi survive and how
can I make it more popular", whereas Java folks are more concerned with
where will the future of new Java standards take us?

Third, many Java forums exists. JB non tech is only one of them and is not
the more predominant. Again, Delphi is only available from one company and
one place. If you want to see more Java articles, I would suggest different
Java forums. Do a google search.

Fourth, Java is Java regardless of what IDE you use. So, it is not simply a
MUST GO TO Borland for answers, even if you are using the JBuilder IDE. Any
person who writes "Java code", using Eclipse, Net Beans, Idea, or JEdit,
can share the same common concerns and features list. Code I produce in
JBuilder can be used in any other Java IDE, or any Programming editor. It
is not specific to JB. This, of course, is not true with Delphi.

Lastly, most questions asked by Java folks are more technical in nature than
chattery talk. The reasons why are as per above, especially the survival
aspects.

Please do not misconstrue my reflections concerning Delphi as being inferior
or superior to Java. In this context, this is not the question. The
question is one of "why more post?"

Delphi use, is not on the rise. Fortunately or unfortunately (depending upon
your needs and goals), Delphi use is on the decline, as are many other
languages outside NET (C#) and Java. That's just the way it is, like it or
not.
Valentino Kyriakides
2004-04-16 20:07:35 UTC
Permalink
Paul, you should post exactly these statements also to the Delphi
non-technical group! - BTW, I fully agree here...
Post by pnichols
Post by Buch
Comparing to delphi.non-technical, it seems there is so little traffic
here. Where are all Java people?
And it's not that there are not many nontechnical issues...
First, you make the false assumption that JBuilder=Java. That is not the
case whereas Delphi=Delphi period. JBuilder is only one of many Java tools.
Second, Delphi is more of a "programming" religion. Java is more of an
Enterprise language/platform used to produce Enterprise Application
structure.
I like Delphi a lot, but let's face it, Delphi has been an IDE/Language
looking for a place and a role in the new NET/Java world. Java has no such
needs. It is the defacto standard platform being used in the
EBusiness/ECommerce Enterprise world today.
Delphi people are much more concerned over a "will Delphi survive and how
can I make it more popular", whereas Java folks are more concerned with
where will the future of new Java standards take us?
Third, many Java forums exists. JB non tech is only one of them and is not
the more predominant. Again, Delphi is only available from one company and
one place. If you want to see more Java articles, I would suggest different
Java forums. Do a google search.
Fourth, Java is Java regardless of what IDE you use. So, it is not simply a
MUST GO TO Borland for answers, even if you are using the JBuilder IDE. Any
person who writes "Java code", using Eclipse, Net Beans, Idea, or JEdit,
can share the same common concerns and features list. Code I produce in
JBuilder can be used in any other Java IDE, or any Programming editor. It
is not specific to JB. This, of course, is not true with Delphi.
Lastly, most questions asked by Java folks are more technical in nature than
chattery talk. The reasons why are as per above, especially the survival
aspects.
Please do not misconstrue my reflections concerning Delphi as being inferior
or superior to Java. In this context, this is not the question. The
question is one of "why more post?"
Delphi use, is not on the rise. Fortunately or unfortunately (depending upon
your needs and goals), Delphi use is on the decline, as are many other
languages outside NET (C#) and Java. That's just the way it is, like it or
not.
pnichols
2004-04-20 07:19:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Valentino Kyriakides
Paul, you should post exactly these statements also to the Delphi
non-technical group! - BTW, I fully agree here...
Are you trying to cause me more grief or do you enjoy seeing people getting
flamed? :)
Valentino Kyriakides
2004-04-20 16:13:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by pnichols
Post by Valentino Kyriakides
Paul, you should post exactly these statements also to the Delphi
non-technical group! - BTW, I fully agree here...
Are you trying to cause me more grief or do you enjoy seeing people getting
flamed? :)
Usually neither the first one nor the second one, even you may be right when
you think that you possibly will be killed then by the overall Delphi
evangelists there... I just thought that the Delphi people there would maybe
also benefit, if they realize that there are also some other languages,
which fulfill portable Enterprise like tasks in a wider manner. - You know
the people there are mostly always reasoning like this "...if you cant do it
with Delphi don't do it...". But now where they discovered .Net capabilities
inside Delphi8 they maybe will widen their horizon a little bit. However, I
believe they still will say soon ".Net is best done in...well you know what
they will tell you here, it starts with a D and end with an i..." ;)
pnichols
2004-04-20 16:35:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by pnichols
Post by pnichols
Are you trying to cause me more grief or do you enjoy seeing people
getting
Post by pnichols
flamed? :)
Usually neither the first one nor the second one, even you may be right
when you think that you possibly will be killed
I agree, but I have been trying to warn many of them for years. Necessity is
the mother of all invention, however. Sooner or later, they will discover
it on their own :)
George de la Torre
2004-04-19 00:41:46 UTC
Permalink
Hi Paul,
"Second, Delphi is more of a "programming" religion. Java is more of an
Enterprise language/platform used to produce Enterprise Application
structure."
So, true, I've been a Delphi developer since version 1, but now working
exclusively with J2EE. I'm glad to hang on to Borland with JBuilder but
can't no longer attend Borcon. Been going to Borcon since Borlando, too bad
the Java tracks are useless - won't be going to Borcon anymore.

Although you can't blame Borland, the Delphi community is made of Microsoft
disciples with an alternate view of development tools.

For me, Delphi was the only reason I worked with Microsoft Windows at all.

As for religion - Thank the Lord, Java has set me free...
pnichols
2004-04-19 05:18:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by George de la Torre
Hi Paul,
"Second, Delphi is more of a "programming" religion. Java is more of an
Enterprise language/platform used to produce Enterprise Application
structure."
So, true, I've been a Delphi developer since version 1, but now working
exclusively with J2EE. I'm glad to hang on to Borland with JBuilder but
can't no longer attend Borcon. Been going to Borcon since Borlando, too
bad the Java tracks are useless - won't be going to Borcon anymore.
Yes, I hope folks do not take this the wrong way :). What I meant by this is
that the Delphi IDE/language has so captivated people to the extent that
many are no longer evaluating Delphi in the larger scheme of things, but
rather are devotees to the degree that if Delphi does not provide the best
path for a particular application need, many refuse to use or see anything
else. This is not unusual and restricted to Delphi alone however. It can
and does happen to anything that once has great prominence and now is
threatened. It could happen and probably will to Java one day as well.

There may be some Java "religious" folks as well. However, most Java people
came from the C/C++ or something else language world, or the Unix world,
where tools are an end to a means, due to the availability of many
divergent toolsets, especially in the Unix world.

To these Java developers, Java the language and Java the platform, is a
toolset that helps them accomplish certain tasks better than anything else.
This is especially true in XPlatform and Network centric work. It is not
then so much of a religion as it is a tool for fulfilling particular needs.

On top of this, many Java developers are not tied to any particular sect
(aka IBM, Sun, or Open Source Java), but use what is best. We see many
using Eclipse and SWT verses Swing and Net Beans, just as we see many using
JBuilder and/or Oracle JDeveloper, or even XEmacs, or JEdit to produce
standard and non standard JCP applications.

Frameworks too vary, from JSF and JSTL to Open Source Hibernate, Struts,
etc. So it is not a one IDE fits all type scenario, nor a Sun only
framework. Much more difficult to have a common repository for praise in
the Java world, than in the Delphi world. :) I would say that the Java
world is more akin to the C/C++ world as far as divergence of opinion and
perhaps devotion.
Post by George de la Torre
Although you can't blame Borland, the Delphi community is made of
Microsoft disciples with an alternate view of development tools.
That is true to a large degree. Some have migrated however (aka Kylix
users), but they still want their Delphi language and IDE. Nothing wrong
with that and I am not arguing against either. Usage, however, of both
Delphi and Kylix combined, is no where near that of Java nor MS.NET/C# for
new application development.

When I worked with Win32 almost exclusively I much preferred Delphi and
Borland's CBuilder to anything else. Not because there were not others, but
because these tools worked the best. I did not choose the XPlatform
mandate, it more or less chose me ;-). That is why I chose Java, not
because I found it easier nor better than what I had been using, but
because I could do the job with Java (xplatform), which is what my
requirements became. Neither Delphi nor BCB could fulfill the role, so it
was foolish for me to insist on wishing to use these tools and these only.

Later, as Web centric programming tasks were given to me, I found that Java
was actually better in these areas than Delphi or C++ in general. Easier,
more efficient, and easier to work with, period. Yes, there was a learning
curve, not that steep, and sure there were some things I missed in Delphi
and BCB, and I still do. I found JBuilder closer than anything else to my
Delphi and BCB experiences and still find it the best overall Java IDE.
Borland knows IDEs better than anyone else, IMHO.
Post by George de la Torre
For me, Delphi was the only reason I worked with Microsoft Windows at all.
Hmm, I do not know if that was my reason or not :).

It probably had something to do with my total focus with MS Windows, early
on. More than likely though, it had more to do with my venturing away from
my "comfort zone".

In other words, it had more to do with my reservations about learning
something totally foreign to me. I am willing to bet others who want to
stick with what they know, are experiencing a "fear factor" as well. It is
extremely difficult to go from something you know intimately to something
entirely different. Very unsettling to go from advanced programmer to
novice apprentice. Couple this with job security concerns and market demand
and I can easily understand why some are fighting tooth and nail to hang
on.

I can easily recall that I almost experienced a panic attack when I had to
do AM programming on OS/2 after three months on a job, with no prior
training. I was terrified at having to go to a 3270 emulator and use the
TSO editor to look for Cobol and JCL files. This isn't what I was hired
for. Is my job now in jeopardy?

No one likes to go from a vital necessity to a "bottom of the totem pole"
type position. That is why I feel it so important to know something about
what the majority of the industry is using. That way, you are not faced
with the dilemma of "fear, uncertainty, and doubt". Of course no one can
know everything, but try telling that to some HR departments :)

Employers certainly do not make this easier either, since many think you
should be an expert in everything these days. Usually I tell people who
want to know if someone or myself is an expert, exactly what an expert is?
I have yet to meet one :)

Java is huge, can be extremely complex, and sometimes simply overwhelming.
Whereas Delphi covered a part of the world, Java covers the world. There
can be great comfort in knowing that I can program for nearly any device in
the world, but at the sametime, it can become profusely overwhelming in its
scope and in its complexity.

Delphi is a great tool and superb IDE. I am forced, however, to realize it
has an uncertain future in the new world of NET and Java.

I do wish Delphi and those who use it, the best. My personal advise (for
what it is worth), would be that the Delphi programmer not neglect to learn
something else as well;-- something that has more industry wide appeal.
What that would be, would depend upon what type of shop you are in and what
your business requirements are. I am not suggesting that they abandon
Delphi altogether either. For some requirements, it may be just the ticket
to application/utility success. But I would be fearful to keep all of my
eggs in that one basket, as well.

Finally, we still do some Delphi work, primarily for maintaining previously
written applications. Sometimes, I find myself wanting a Java like Delphi
and at other times, a Delphi like Java. Both are good tools, but I am
forced to realize that one has a brighter future than the other. The IT
world changes and if we wish to continue to work in it, we must learn to
change as well. Sometimes these changes are necessary, sometimes they are
market only driven. Either way, the single lowly programmer has little
control. :)

Have a good one!!
Buch
2004-04-19 10:11:34 UTC
Permalink
Nice posts Paul (both this, and later one), as usual, I might say :)

Its true that JBuilder is not Java, so I will rephrase my question to "Where
are JBuilder people" :))
I already did google search, www.javalobby.com , maintained by Rick Ross
(remember Rick Ross? :)) is closest to *.public.java.non-technical I found.
Post by pnichols
question is one of "why more post?"
I remember magical atmosphere on delphi.non-tech, and I want it again, here.
Apart from my reasons, I can think of several more:
- as people move away from Delphi to Java (those that does), their natural
path is to look at JBuilder, and to this non-technical group; good community
is what Delphi user is acustomed to, and wants. While various jbuilder
groups give excellent coverage of their respective fileds, non-technical
could be better
- very soon, Java vs Net issue, ETC. will be even more significant, and I
preffer opinions from people of Borland community origin.
- I found other non-technical issues even more usefull, like you can present
your situation with customer, management, etc and there are lot of
epirienced people with good advices ..
- community is great capital for software firm, or product, and this way
community erosion does no good to either; there is no point in loosing smart
people
- it looks like delphi.non-tech gained some influence over Delphi
development team (d7 update :) ), it would not hurt to do same here

Since this newsgroup is tabula rasa, it would not hurt to try.
Its not that I would like to clone doomsday atmosphere, more like '98 one
... lets see exactly how much we can get non-technical here ... :)
pnichols
2004-04-19 13:23:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Buch
Nice posts Paul (both this, and later one), as usual, I might say :)
Its true that JBuilder is not Java, so I will rephrase my question to
"Where are JBuilder people" :))
I already did google search, www.javalobby.com , maintained by Rick Ross
(remember Rick Ross? :)) is closest to *.public.java.non-technical I found.
But I think those who perceive the posting differences (in number), are
still looking more at JBuilder as they would say Delphi or BCB. I know it
is a different concept for them, as Delphi is Delphi period, whereas Java
is Java, so coding and developing in Java is not specific to JBuilder.

IDE knowledge is secondary in the Java world, whereas it is part and parcel
in the Delphi world. Sure IDEs are useful and some hold different features
and feature sets than others. I think JB is tops, but if I am asked to use
Net Beans or Oracle JDeveloper, I am forfieting some niceties, not my
language, libraries, nor API structure.

I know that this is different than anything else (well C# MAY get close one
day, if we see a true inter-operable NET framework from different sources
and different platforms), even in the C/C++ world. IDEs such as KDevelop or
CBuilder X, verses MS Visual C++, are still more or less proprietary in
nature. In other words, I cannot just change the KDevelop IDE for Visual
C++. Why? The libs and coding paradigms are different, as are the intended
APIs. Even though ANSI C and ANSI C++ are primarily the same, unless you
are speaking of exactly the same platform calling the same libs, the
resulting code will be different. Java isn't like this. For Instance:

JBuilder code for Hello World

public class HelloWorld {
public HelloWorld() {
}

public static void main(String args[]) {
System.out.println("Hello World!");
}
}

Net Beans code for HelloWorld
public class HelloWorld {
public HelloWorld() {
}

public static void main(String args[]) {
System.out.println("Hello World!");
}
}

Oracle JDeveloper code for HelloWorld

public class HelloWorld {
public HelloWorld() {
}

public static void main(String args[]) {
System.out.println("Hello World!");
}
}

Notice they are all the same.

JBuulder and Oracle JDeveloper usually have a jbInit() section for GUI code,
whereas Net Beans will have an init() section or something similar. But
none of the calls and methods are different unless you are using libs
specific to JBuilder or Oracle JDeveloper, or Net Beans. Even then, the
libs can be added to any of the other environments( provided you have
license to redistribute them).

That is the difference. If I code Visual C++ application and them switch to
KDevelop, my code and libs will not be the same, except for very straight
forward and simple ANSI C/C++ code.

That is why you have the allegiances to the IDEs, as well as the
environment, in most other languages. Try getting a Unix C/C++ job when you
only know Visual C++ or visa versa. Now compare that with a Java job, where
you use JB, but they use Net Beans or Sun One Studio. 90% of the time, they
are not going to care about your IDE experience, since it is not that
important.
Post by Buch
Post by pnichols
question is one of "why more post?"
I remember magical atmosphere on delphi.non-tech, and I want it again,
- as people move away from Delphi to Java (those that does), their natural
path is to look at JBuilder, and to this non-technical group; good
community is what Delphi user is acustomed to, and wants. While various
jbuilder groups give excellent coverage of their respective fileds,
non-technical could be better
I do not disagree with this. This is why I started the Java for Delphi
programmers site. As I get more time, I plan to make this more of a
community site, and update (I am doing this now), all of the lessons. I do
think that Borland could do well to create a Java for X Programmer forum,
but right now Borland is more interested in maintain divergent revenue from
Delphi, Java, and NET offerings. I surely understand this.

In other words, it is not profitable for Borland to suggest a "switch".
Post by Buch
- very soon, Java vs Net issue, ETC. will be even more significant, and I
preffer opinions from people of Borland community origin.
I think NET is more or less an option for MS verses everything else right
now. That could change in the future, but a real world evaluation is to
commit to NET only if you also intend also to commit only to MS.

That does not mean that NET does not have some nice features in it, nor do I
think NET is altogether bad for Java or visa versa. In fact, I think NET is
causing Java world to reevaluate development choices. Java is in need of
easing the complexity factors. Say what we will but MS is very good in
making the hard things easier. :)
Post by Buch
- I found other non-technical issues even more usefull, like you can
present your situation with customer, management, etc and there are lot of
epirienced people with good advices ..
True. There are a lot of knowledgeable people who contribute to the JB
forums. Non Tech doesn't get as much traffic as some of the other more
technical aspects in the JB forums. I think it has to do with the "religion
thing" ;-)
Post by Buch
- community is great capital for software firm, or product, and this way
community erosion does no good to either; there is no point in loosing
smart people
- it looks like delphi.non-tech gained some influence over Delphi
development team (d7 update :) ), it would not hurt to do same here
Perhaps. But Borland alone does not drive Java, and I think that is one
major difference.

Borland is fully aware however, that if they do not support the emerging
standards and adopted platforms by a large segment of the Java community
(look at Struts for an example, as well as Jakarta commons), they will lose
this section of the IDE market.
Post by Buch
Since this newsgroup is tabula rasa, it would not hurt to try.
Its not that I would like to clone doomsday atmosphere, more like '98 one
... lets see exactly how much we can get non-technical here ... :)
No problemos.. No disagreements.. :)
Iman L Crawford
2004-04-16 18:53:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Buch
Comparing to delphi.non-technical, it seems there is so little traffic
here. Where are all Java people?
And it's not that there are not many nontechnical issues...
Proof of just how productive Delphi is. :)
--
Iman
John McGrath [TeamB]
2004-04-28 12:37:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Buch
Where are all Java people?
Busy writing Java programs. :o)
--
Regards,

John McGrath [TeamB]

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