Future of JBuilder? (at Borland?)

[unknown]

What does anyone think; if/when Borland ditches JBuilder, do you think
they'll just discontinue it, or will they sell it to someone who will
continue to develop it?

In other words, should I keep on with JBuilder, or look for a new IDE?
Eclipse looks interesting. It's open source too.

JP

[Lori M Olson [TeamB]]

Post by unknown
What does anyone think; if/when Borland ditches JBuilder, do you think
they'll just discontinue it, or will they sell it to someone who will
continue to develop it?
In other words, should I keep on with JBuilder, or look for a new IDE?
Eclipse looks interesting. It's open source too.
JP

What makes you think that Borland is not committed to JBuilder?

[unknown]

Post by Lori M Olson [TeamB]
What makes you think that Borland is not committed to JBuilder?

I didn't say *anything* about what I think.

Are *you* saying that Borland is not committed to JBuilder?

JP

[Kevin Dean [TeamB]]

I didn't say anything about what I think.
Are you saying that Borland is not committed to JBuilder?
JP

Ah yes, the talk-show pundit (right- or left-wing, it doesn't matter)
school of argument: make a statement implying something and when
challenged on it, deny that you implied anything, and suggest instead
that the challenger is implying it.

For what it's worth, TeamB members have no more insight into the inner
workings of Borland than anyone else. Given the wide-open nature of
your question, all I can personally say is this:

If company X discontinues product Y, company X will gladly sell the
product to company Z if company Z offers a reasonable amount of money M
that company X feels fairly values the intellectual property in product
Y. Alternately, company X may release the product to the open-source
community if it feels doing so has some value N in either money or
goodwill.

Insert values for X, Y, Z, M, and N where appropriate.

[unknown]

Post by Kevin Dean [TeamB]
Ah yes, the talk-show pundit (right- or left-wing, it doesn't matter)
school of argument: make a statement implying something and when
challenged on it, deny that you implied anything, and suggest instead
that the challenger is implying it.

That's a lot of analysis for what was a simple typo. I meant to ask if
Ms. Olson was saying that Borland *is* committed to JBuilder.

As you pointed out, TeamB is ignorant of Borland's inner workings, so
if Borland is ditching JBuilder Ms. Olson (and you) may not know. Of
course, if she (or you) does know, you probably signed an NDA in order
to hear it. I guess that means that assurances from TeamB are
worthless; either from ignorance or honorable deception.

Before anyone jumps on me, I mean no disrespect for the ever-helpful
TeamB.

[Jennifer Ashley Kuiper]

Post by Lori M Olson [TeamB]
What makes you think that Borland is not committed to JBuilder?

Well, try Borland Core SDP eg. I think that is a direct threat to all the
existing environments such as Delphi/C#(/C++) and yes, JBuilder too. As it
seems Borland is focusing more and more on the larger enterprises, at the
cost of smaller businesses and developers.

Nothing has been said though, so let's keep up the faith...

Jenn

[unknown]

Post by Jennifer Ashley Kuiper

Post by Lori M Olson [TeamB]
What makes you think that Borland is not committed to JBuilder?

Well, try Borland Core SDP eg. I think that is a direct threat to all
the existing environments such as Delphi/C#(/C++) and yes, JBuilder
too. As it seems Borland is focusing more and more on the larger
enterprises, at the cost of smaller businesses and developers.

It's been a long time since Borland was concerned about small
developers; maybe since Phillipe left. Understandable. Small
developers buy one or five or ten copies of an IDE. Big businesses buy
five-or-six-figure "solutions". That's a no brainer.

Post by Jennifer Ashley Kuiper
Nothing has been said though, so let's keep up the faith...

I'm afraid nothing *will* be said until it's over. TeamB may know more
(those yearly picnics must be for *something*) but they can't tell us.

[Kevin Dean [TeamB]]

I'm afraid nothing will be said until it's over. TeamB may know more
(those yearly picnics must be for something) but they can't tell us.

Wow. I've never been part of a conspiracy before.

(Must remember not to use the secret handshake in public.)

[unknown]

Post by Kevin Dean [TeamB]

I'm afraid nothing will be said until it's over. TeamB may know
more (those yearly picnics must be for something) but they can't
tell us.

Wow. I've never been part of a conspiracy before.
(Must remember not to use the secret handshake in public.)

Why are you being nasty to me?

What part of what I just said is untrue? TeamB visits Borland every
year. If you as a member of TeamB knew anything about Borland's
business decisions, you could not say due to your NDA.

So what's with the snotty conspiracy remark? What is your problem with
me?

[Kevin Dean [TeamB]]

Post by unknown
Why are you being nasty to me?
What part of what I just said is untrue? TeamB visits Borland every
year. If you as a member of TeamB knew anything about Borland's
business decisions, you could not say due to your NDA.
So what's with the snotty conspiracy remark? What is your problem
with me?

I'm not being nasty. I'm just trying to point out the nature of your
arguments.

You start out with the question of what would happen if/when Borland
ditches JBuilder. When someone from TeamB responded, you then played a
kind of "gotcha" asking what makes said person believe that Borland
*is* committed to JBuilder (note my allowance for your typo).

Apart from my flippant talk-show host remark, I gave you the best
answer possible under the circumstances:

"If company X discontinues product Y, company X will gladly sell the
product to company Z if company Z offers a reasonable amount of money M
that company X feels fairly values the intellectual property in product
Y. Alternately, company X may release the product to the open-source
community if it feels doing so has some value N in either money or
goodwill."

The above is as true for Borland as it is for any other company.

You then went into conspiracy theory territory with this:

"I'm afraid nothing *will* be said until it's over. TeamB may know more
(those yearly picnics must be for *something*) but they can't tell us."

Effectively, what you're saying is that whatever answer we give simply
can't be trusted. This is standard conspiracy theory stuff: if the
people you're dealing with don't give you the answers you want, assume
that it's because of some code of silence.

I was invited to join TeamB about a month ago and all I got from
Borland was a pile of the latest software; I didn't get a binder
stamped "Top Secret" with Borland's product strategy inside. Unless
there's a probation period I'm unaware of, I doubt the other members of
TeamB have anything like that either.

In fact, my experience so far has been that TeamB gets word about
Borland's strategy the same way everyone else does: from the trade
publications. TeamB has private newsgroups of its own; I've been
through the archives going back several months and apart from the
occasional "who would like to join the beta for product ABC", all
discussions about product direction etc. are triggered by members of
TeamB based on something that was posted publicly, on Borland's web
site, in the newspapers, on ZDNet, or wherever.

All I (or anyone outside of Borland) can say with any confidence is
that Borland's product strategy today is pretty much the same as it was
yesterday and it probably won't change tomorrow. The further I get
from today, however, the less confident I get.

[unknown]

"I'm afraid nothing will be said until it's over. TeamB may know more
(those yearly picnics must be for something) but they can't tell us."

I don't understand why you label this conpiracy. Once again, since you
ignored it the first time, which part of what I wrote is not true? It
is *true* that if Borland dumps JBuilder nothing will be said until it
happens. (Remember IntraBuilder? A fine, early web tool that went
poof overnight.) It is *true* that if TeamB has any foreknowledge of
this event, TeamB cannot talk about it. (NDA) I don't see a
conspiracy there, just simple facts.

Effectively, what you're saying is that whatever answer we give simply
can't be trusted. This is standard conspiracy theory stuff: if the
people you're dealing with don't give you the answers you want, assume
that it's because of some code of silence.

Code of silence? I mentioned an NDA, not a code of silence. TeamB
people are under NDA, right?

I was invited to join TeamB about a month ago and all I got from
Borland was a pile of the latest software; I didn't get a binder
stamped "Top Secret" with Borland's product strategy inside. Unless
there's a probation period I'm unaware of, I doubt the other members
of TeamB have anything like that either.

I didn't say that you did. If you care to actually read what I wrote,
I said that *if* you did have any "top secret" information, you could
not say so due to your NDA.

All I (or anyone outside of Borland) can say with any confidence is
that Borland's product strategy today is pretty much the same as it
was yesterday and it probably won't change tomorrow. The further I
get from today, however, the less confident I get.

In other words, simple ignorance. All you need to do is say that,
instead of this snappish rant about conspiracies.

On a side note, have you read that stuff about newsgroup etiquette
that's posted on the Borland web site? For example, this one:

10 Write conservatively, read forgivingly. Communication in a pure text
medium, such as a newsgroup, is prone to misunderstanding, often due to
the lack of non-verbal cues such as inflections, facial expression and
body language. Given this, it is best to be conservative with
expressions of anger and sarcasm when writing. When reading, assume
good intent; if a message can be taken two ways, assume the friendliest
meaning.

It says, "it is best to be conservative with expressions of anger and
sarcasm when writing." You were sarcastic as of your first reply to
me. I suspect that your quasi-official status means you should follow
your own rules more closely, not less.

[Dave Nottage [TeamB]]

It is true that if Borland dumps JBuilder nothing will be said
until it happens.

None of us knows that for sure.

(Remember IntraBuilder? A fine, early web tool that went poof
overnight.)

Even if it did happen with IntraBuilder (I don't know if it did), it
doesn't necessarily mean it would happen with JBuilder. If you want to
use historical examples, the BDE (excluding SQL Links, IIRC) is an
example where Borland announced that it was being discontinued.

It is true that if TeamB has any
foreknowledge of this event, TeamB cannot talk about it.

That's true, although whether we're under NDA about it would be
irrelevant anyway, because it would be inappropriate for TeamB members
to make such announcements.

[unknown]

Post by Dave Nottage [TeamB]
Even if it did happen with IntraBuilder (I don't know if it did), it
doesn't necessarily mean it would happen with JBuilder. If you want to
use historical examples, the BDE (excluding SQL Links, IIRC) is an
example where Borland announced that it was being discontinued.

Your point is made. However your example suffers in that the BDE was
an aging tool that was no longer up to the task for which it was
designed. It was in Borland's interest to wean lazy developers from
the BDE. I doubt you are remotely suggesting that about JBuilder.

Post by Dave Nottage [TeamB]
That's true, although whether we're under NDA about it would be
irrelevant anyway, because it would be inappropriate for TeamB members
to make such announcements.

You mean inappropriate above and beyond your NDA? How do you mean?

[Dave Nottage [TeamB]]

Post by unknown
Your point is made. However your example suffers in that the BDE was
an aging tool that was no longer up to the task for which it was
designed. It was in Borland's interest to wean lazy developers from
the BDE. I doubt you are remotely suggesting that about JBuilder.

Regardless of what the tool is (be it JBuilder or whatever), if Borland
came up with a new product (eg dbExpress vs BDE) that was offered as an
alternative, presumably they'd prefer to "wean" developers from it to
the new tool. (think MS and VB to VB.NET.. they're so different it's
not funny)

If it were a tool that was totally discontinued with no alternative, it
would seem likely that there would be not much warning, much like just
about any tool that has been discontinued by any company.

Post by unknown
You mean inappropriate above and beyond your NDA? How do you mean?

TeamB are not Borland's PR dept; we're a group of volunteers that
provide peer support. If Borland haven't already made an announcement
about policy to do with a product, we're not going to be doing it
before them.

[unknown]

Post by Dave Nottage [TeamB]
If it were a tool that was totally discontinued with no alternative,
it would seem likely that there would be not much warning, much like
just about any tool that has been discontinued by any company.

Yes, exactly.

Post by Dave Nottage [TeamB]
TeamB are not Borland's PR dept; we're a group of volunteers that
provide peer support. If Borland haven't already made an announcement
about policy to do with a product, we're not going to be doing it
before them.

I'm not Borland PR either. Still, If I knew something interesting
about Borland, and I were not under NDA, I'd say it. (I don't and I'm
not.) Would that be inappropriate?

[Dave Nottage [TeamB]]

Post by unknown
I'm not Borland PR either. Still, If I knew something interesting
about Borland, and I were not under NDA, I'd say it. (I don't and I'm
not.) Would that be inappropriate?

It would be inappropriate if it were something that was not public
already, eg if you found out from something leaked from the inside, but
then I'd leave that up to Borland's legal dept to advise you, since I'm
not in their legal dept, either.

[unknown]

Post by Dave Nottage [TeamB]

Post by unknown
I'm not Borland PR either. Still, If I knew something interesting
about Borland, and I were not under NDA, I'd say it. (I don't and
I'm not.) Would that be inappropriate?

It would be inappropriate if it were something that was not public
already, eg if you found out from something leaked from the inside,
but then I'd leave that up to Borland's legal dept to advise you,
since I'm not in their legal dept, either.

By mentioning Borland's legal department you imply that it would be
actually illegal, not simply inappropriate, and then you turn around
and claim ignorance in this area. That's certainly a mixed message.

How would it be illegal for me to reveal something I knew about
Borland? I am not associated with Borland. Were I to learn something
from some Borland insider, it would be the Borland insider who would be
breaking their contract, not me.

[Dave Nottage [TeamB]]

Post by unknown

Post by Dave Nottage [TeamB]
It would be inappropriate if it were something that was not public
already, eg if you found out from something leaked from the inside,
but then I'd leave that up to Borland's legal dept to advise you,
since I'm not in their legal dept, either.

By mentioning Borland's legal department you imply that it would be
actually illegal

No, I imply that it *might* be.

Post by unknown
, and then you turn around
and claim ignorance in this area.

That would be since I'm not in Borland's legal dept, nor am I a lawyer.

[Jeroen Wenting]

Post by unknown

Post by Dave Nottage [TeamB]

Post by unknown
I'm not Borland PR either. Still, If I knew something interesting
about Borland, and I were not under NDA, I'd say it. (I don't and
I'm not.) Would that be inappropriate?

It would be inappropriate if it were something that was not public
already, eg if you found out from something leaked from the inside,
but then I'd leave that up to Borland's legal dept to advise you,
since I'm not in their legal dept, either.

By mentioning Borland's legal department you imply that it would be
actually illegal, not simply inappropriate, and then you turn around
and claim ignorance in this area. That's certainly a mixed message.
How would it be illegal for me to reveal something I knew about
Borland? I am not associated with Borland. Were I to learn something
from some Borland insider, it would be the Borland insider who would be
breaking their contract, not me.

You disclosing it to the outside world would be tantamount to industrial
espionage which is illegal.
It could also be facilitating insider trading in company stock which is
illegal.
Your source inside the company would be breaking his or her contract with
Borland which is illegal.

[Alexey N. Solofnenko]

Phillipe made this company almost bankrupt (but still doing great
products). "New" Borland does not forget about small people. It still
produces cheap Developer and free Foundation editions.

- Alexey.

Post by unknown
It's been a long time since Borland was concerned about small
developers; maybe since Phillipe left. Understandable. Small
developers buy one or five or ten copies of an IDE. Big businesses buy
five-or-six-figure "solutions". That's a no brainer.

Post by Jennifer Ashley Kuiper
Nothing has been said though, so let's keep up the faith...

I'm afraid nothing *will* be said until it's over. TeamB may know more
(those yearly picnics must be for *something*) but they can't tell us.

[Jeroen Wenting]

But stripped down to such an extent (not talking about the free versions,
those are great for the price) that they're next to useless for many
purposes.
JBuilder 2005 Enterprise barely meets my requirements, if it hadn't I'd not
have purchased it (well, ordered. I'm still waiting for delivery) and I
don't have either the funds not the inclination to pay the price for the
enterprise version.
If I'd needed that I'd have purchased IntelliJ instead (which is about the
same price as JB Dev edition and more powerful).
In fact, I'd have purchased that anyway hadn't I been able to get an upgrade
to JB2005 Dev at a price lower than the purchase price of IntelliJ.

BC++ or Delphi Dev costs almost as much as the entire Microsoft Visual
Studio. At that price it's little surprise most people go for the bigger
player in the market.

Don't get me wrong, I love Borland products.
I've been using them since the mid 1980s and purchased them (before it was
at school) since the mid 1990s, I've spend more money on Borland products
than any other single company and never made a cent out of it.
But the Borland policy to ignore (effectively) the needs of the independents
and small accounts is tearing a gaping hole in their customer base which may
be too much to bear.
Not only do those independents bring in a lot of income, they also provide
critical mass as they often are the ones to introduce Borland products into
the enterprise development groups that Borland wants to target.
I've done it myself. Arriving at a newly formed group in a multinational
where the only development tools are the Borland tools on my laptop. Guess
what the team is first exposed to?
Guess what they start asking for from the purchase department?
--
Jeroen Wenting
jwenting at hornet dot demon dot nl

Post by Alexey N. Solofnenko
Phillipe made this company almost bankrupt (but still doing great
products). "New" Borland does not forget about small people. It still
produces cheap Developer and free Foundation editions.
- Alexey.

Post by unknown
It's been a long time since Borland was concerned about small
developers; maybe since Phillipe left. Understandable. Small
developers buy one or five or ten copies of an IDE. Big businesses buy
five-or-six-figure "solutions". That's a no brainer.

Post by Jennifer Ashley Kuiper
Nothing has been said though, so let's keep up the faith...

I'm afraid nothing *will* be said until it's over. TeamB may know more
(those yearly picnics must be for *something*) but they can't tell us.

[Jeroen Wenting]

Post by unknown

Post by Jennifer Ashley Kuiper

Post by Lori M Olson [TeamB]
What makes you think that Borland is not committed to JBuilder?

Well, try Borland Core SDP eg. I think that is a direct threat to all
the existing environments such as Delphi/C#(/C++) and yes, JBuilder
too. As it seems Borland is focusing more and more on the larger
enterprises, at the cost of smaller businesses and developers.

It's been a long time since Borland was concerned about small
developers; maybe since Phillipe left. Understandable. Small
developers buy one or five or ten copies of an IDE. Big businesses buy
five-or-six-figure "solutions". That's a no brainer.

OTOH there's hundreds of small ones for every big one...
Borland's greatest strength has always been the small accounts and
independents. The enterprise usually goes for Microsoft or IBM.
I know that from personal experience...

Personally I consider Borland's experiment with abandoning 90% of their
userbase a few years ago to have been a major mistake. Borland themselves
also realised that rather quickly when they reverted back out of the Inprise
debacle.
Reading their website though it seems that they're going that way again.

We'll see...

[David Orriss, Jr. [TeamB]]

Post by unknown
In other words, should I keep on with JBuilder, or look for a new IDE?
Eclipse looks interesting. It's open source too.

I love it when people compare JBuilder with Eclipse. I made one of my
developers here use Eclipse for 6 months before I *ever* showed him
JBuilder. He went and got all the little addins to make EJB, Struts,
etc etc work with Eclipse. He was pretty proficient with it, too.

Then I gave him JBuilder 2005 Enterprise edition. He worked with that
for two days.. and then cursed me for subjecting him to Eclipse.

He'll get over it, after some therepy I'm sure.

Look, you want to use Eclipse, go for it. But don't try to compare
Eclipse to JBuilder Enterprise - that's like comparing a Radio Flyer
Wagon to a Ferarri (Eclipse being the Radio Flyer, of course). When
you compare IDEs be sure to look at JBuilder Foundation Edition 2005
and compare THAT to Eclipse. That's a far more reasonable comparison.

And Borland isn't giving up on JBuilder. Why would they discontinue
something that sells and makes money? Will they discontinue it
someday? Well, tell you what - you shake your Magic 8-ball and I'll
shake mine and we'll compare answers. That's about all *anyone* will
know. I can tell you right now that Borland certainly has *not*
stopped JBuilder and work VERY hard on it. If the last three service
updates since 2005 came out aren't proof enough of that, I don't know
what else could be.
--
David Orriss Jr. *TeamB*
http://www.davenet.net/
* Please limit all responses to the newsgroups. Thanks! *
Got a JBuilder website? Join the JBuilder Netring! Check out
http://www.davenet.net/jbwebring/jbwebring.htm for more information!

My blog: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/daorriss/

Save yourself some time and check these sites:

Borland Newsgroup Search:
http://www.borland.com/newsgroups/ngsearch.html
Joi Ellis's Faq-O-Matic:
http://www.visi.com/~gyles19/fom-serve/cache/1.html

[Gillmer J. Derge [TeamB]]

Post by David Orriss, Jr. [TeamB]
If the last three service
updates since 2005 came out aren't proof enough of that, I don't know
what else could be.

You missed one. They just released another one (BES 6.5 integration)
today or at least this week. But I guess maybe they'll abandon it
tomorrow. We'll see ... My 8 ball says "Don't count on it." :-)

[unknown]

Post by David Orriss, Jr. [TeamB]
Look, you want to use Eclipse, go for it. But don't try to compare
Eclipse to JBuilder Enterprise - that's like comparing a Radio Flyer
Wagon to a Ferarri (Eclipse being the Radio Flyer, of course).

Of course, just in case it wasn't blindingly obvious.

Thank you for your opinions.

[unknown]

Post by David Orriss, Jr. [TeamB]
And Borland isn't giving up on JBuilder.

You're the first person to sate that outright.

[unknown]

Post by unknown

Post by David Orriss, Jr. [TeamB]
And Borland isn't giving up on JBuilder.

You're the first person to sate that outright.

^^^^
state

[David Orriss, Jr. [TeamB]]

You're the first person to state that outright.

Yea well read the disclaimer at the end of my blog... ;)
--
David Orriss Jr. *TeamB*
http://www.davenet.net/
* Please limit all responses to the newsgroups. Thanks! *
Got a JBuilder website? Join the JBuilder Netring! Check out
http://www.davenet.net/jbwebring/jbwebring.htm for more information!

My blog: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/daorriss/

Save yourself some time and check these sites:

Borland Newsgroup Search:
http://www.borland.com/newsgroups/ngsearch.html
Joi Ellis's Faq-O-Matic:
http://www.visi.com/~gyles19/fom-serve/cache/1.html

[unknown]

Post by David Orriss, Jr. [TeamB]

You're the first person to state that outright.

Yea well read the disclaimer at the end of my blog... ;)

Oh, I think see. When you said "Borland isn't giving up on JBuilder"
you really meant "I don't know." I was wondering about that. Every
other TeamB person said, "TeamB doesn't know."

Your disclaimer must come in very handy when you need to change your
position on *any* topic, not just the future of JBuilder. <g>

[Shankar Unni]

Post by unknown
Oh, I think see. When you said "Borland isn't giving up on JBuilder"
you really meant "I don't know." I was wondering about that. Every
other TeamB person said, "TeamB doesn't know."

Only if you believe that since Microsoft hasn't said, *today* (i.e. on
Feb 14, 2005) "No, we are not giving up on Windows", therefore it may be
possible that they are secretly planning to give up on it, and anyone
who says otherwise is somehow either lying or has a hidden agenda..

[unknown]

Only if you believe that since Microsoft hasn't said, today (i.e. on
Feb 14, 2005) "No, we are not giving up on Windows", therefore it may
be possible that they are secretly planning to give up on it, and
anyone who says otherwise is somehow either lying or has a hidden
agenda..

You seem to think my comment was directed at what Borland has said
about Jbuilder. You are mistaken. I was speaking to Mr. Orriss about
the certainty with which he made his assurances of Borland committment,
and his subsequent back-pedaling.

[David Orriss, Jr. [TeamB]]

Post by unknown
Your disclaimer must come in very handy when you need to change your
position on any topic, not just the future of JBuilder. <g>

;)
--
David Orriss Jr. *TeamB*
http://www.davenet.net/
* Please limit all responses to the newsgroups. Thanks! *
Got a JBuilder website? Join the JBuilder Netring! Check out
http://www.davenet.net/jbwebring/jbwebring.htm for more information!

My blog: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/daorriss/

Save yourself some time and check these sites:

Borland Newsgroup Search:
http://www.borland.com/newsgroups/ngsearch.html
Joi Ellis's Faq-O-Matic:
http://www.visi.com/~gyles19/fom-serve/cache/1.html

[unknown]

Post by unknown
Your disclaimer must come in very handy when you need to change your
position on any topic, not just the future of JBuilder. <g>

;)

Most people don't expect to be wrong so often that they need a
pre-written disclaimer. YMMV.

[David Orriss, Jr. [TeamB]]

Post by unknown
Most people don't expect to be wrong so often that they need a
pre-written disclaimer. YMMV.

The disclaimer is very tounge-in-cheek. YMMV.
--
David Orriss Jr. *TeamB*
http://www.davenet.net/
* Please limit all responses to the newsgroups. Thanks! *
Got a JBuilder website? Join the JBuilder Netring! Check out
http://www.davenet.net/jbwebring/jbwebring.htm for more information!

My blog: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/daorriss/

Save yourself some time and check these sites:

Borland Newsgroup Search:
http://www.borland.com/newsgroups/ngsearch.html
Joi Ellis's Faq-O-Matic:
http://www.visi.com/~gyles19/fom-serve/cache/1.html

[unknown]

Post by David Orriss, Jr. [TeamB]

Post by unknown
Most people don't expect to be wrong so often that they need a
pre-written disclaimer. YMMV.

The disclaimer is very tounge-in-cheek. YMMV.

Well, it's certainly some body part in some other body part, but I
don't think it's the tongue in the cheek.

[unknown]

Post by David Orriss, Jr. [TeamB]

Post by unknown
Most people don't expect to be wrong so often that they need a
pre-written disclaimer. YMMV.

The disclaimer is very tounge-in-cheek. YMMV.

Tongue in cheek? Something else I think, but if I say too much you
will cancel my message like last time.

[unknown]

Post by David Orriss, Jr. [TeamB]
The disclaimer is very tounge-in-cheek. YMMV.

Certainly something in something.

[Buch]

Will sell to Oracle.