Borland's New Marketing Campaign

[Alexandra Stehman]

Hey there,

Just curious what's up with all the guys. I haven't yet seen a woman in any
of the new JBuilder ads (supposing it's supposed to be a play on the new
Java Server "Faces" support in JBX1). Not that this is unusual, since women
are typically left out of the marketing campaigns for software (although
kudos to IBM on a fantastic job representing us). Half our team is women,
and we're all a mix ethnically on top of that. If Borland wants to keep up
in the progressive market, they'd better learn to market a little more
progressively - especially since the market is changing rapidly and you
don't see so many male programmers as Borland's marketing team seems to
think you do.

Best Regards,
Alexandra

PS: For a non-server java face, check out:
profiles.yahoo.com/the_linux_chick

[Jennifer-Ashley Kuiper]

Now here's an interesting and perceptive remark. Any respond from the
Borland "guys"?

Regards,
Jenn

Post by Alexandra Stehman
Hey there,
Just curious what's up with all the guys. I haven't yet seen a woman in any
of the new JBuilder ads (supposing it's supposed to be a play on the new
Java Server "Faces" support in JBX1). Not that this is unusual, since women
are typically left out of the marketing campaigns for software (although
kudos to IBM on a fantastic job representing us). Half our team is women,
and we're all a mix ethnically on top of that. If Borland wants to keep up
in the progressive market, they'd better learn to market a little more
progressively - especially since the market is changing rapidly and you
don't see so many male programmers as Borland's marketing team seems to
think you do.
Best Regards,
Alexandra
profiles.yahoo.com/the_linux_chick

[Buch]

Anyway, it is very rare thing to see, a female developer.
The are mainly in sales and customer support.

[Jennifer-Ashley Kuiper]

Post by Buch
Anyway, it is very rare thing to see, a female developer.
The are mainly in sales and customer support.

You are not serious here, are you?

[Alexey N. Solofnenko]

I think he is right - women programmers are less than 20% in all
companies I worked. Sometimes even 0. They are the minority. Should we
protect them, put into reservations?

- Alexey.

Post by Jennifer-Ashley Kuiper

Post by Buch
Anyway, it is very rare thing to see, a female developer.
The are mainly in sales and customer support.

You are not serious here, are you?

[William Meyer]

Post by Jennifer-Ashley Kuiper

Post by Buch
Anyway, it is very rare thing to see, a female developer.
The are mainly in sales and customer support.

You are not serious here, are you?

After nearly 30 years in software development, I have seen relatively
few women developers. I had one working for me on a project, years ago,
and she was quite good. Apart from large shops, I suspect the incidence
of women is still modest.

[Alessandro Federici]

"Jennifer-Ashley Kuiper" <***@maindevelopment.com> wrote in message news:***@newsgroups.borland.com...
[..]

Post by Jennifer-Ashley Kuiper
You are not serious here, are you?

Jennifer,
I think he is and I have to agree with him since I can only remember
meeting 4 female *developers* in my whole career (and I've seen many
offices/software houses, believe me), *all* of which were in the US. When I
worked at Microsoft the proportion of females involved (Dublin and Milano)
was much higher but at the time I was dealing with localization/testing and
the publicity sectors, not actual development.

That said, the Borland web site has plenty of female images in the most
disparate product pages. I found 3 in 1 minute of research although I find
this type of ad images quite boring, ineffective and too "political".

[Jennifer Ashley Kuiper]

Post by Alessandro Federici
That said, the Borland web site has plenty of female images in the most
disparate product pages. I found 3 in 1 minute of research although I find
this type of ad images quite boring, ineffective and too "political".
--

Indeed! Also, when I type "meet the team" in the JBuilder about box, I see
lots of women, and not just in the marketing department. I know that women
developers are quite rare, but I do resent remarks like: "I met a female dev
and she's good too...". That implies that most are not. I am a female and I
like programming. I just don't want don't feel like constantly
(re)considering that there is something wrong with me.

Cya,
Jenn

[Alessandro Federici]

[..] I know that women
developers are quite rare, but I do resent remarks like: "I met a female dev
and she's good too...". That implies that most are not.

hi Jennifer,
I couldn't find anybody mentioning that in this thread, but even if so I
am not sure it necessarily means what you think.
For instance, it could be an *added* plus that means *no, I don't think that
the fact there aren't many means they are bad. As a matter of fact I know
one and she's good too!*. I think that most guys that would tell you that
had thought something along these lines. If I was to believe females cannot
be good developers, I sure wouldn't tell this to a woman (=why get myself in
trouble?) directly or indirectly like you suggested <G> That said, don't get
any ideas of what I think and I do not think ;-) I've not had the
opportunity to work with enough female developers to form an opinion.

I am a female and I
like programming. I just don't want don't feel like constantly
(re)considering that there is something wrong with me.

Why do you care in the first place?
If they have a problem with that, let them be. Life goes on.
It shouldn't really make a difference for you IMO

[Alisdair Meredith (TeamB)]

I know that women developers are quite rare, but I do resent remarks
"I met a female dev and she's good too...". That implies that most
are not. I am a female and I like programming. I just don't want
don't feel like constantly (re)considering that there is something
wrong with me.

I'm afraid I may be a little prejudiced in this regard too.
I have met very few female developers, but those I have met have all
been exceptional, so my expectations of women in the industry are now
much higher than their male counterparts!

I believe that there is a certain self-selection criterion here. An
exceptional developer of either sex is going to succeed in the
industry. Not only are they very good at what they do, they are
usually passionate about it as well.

It seems that for the 'average 9-to-5' developer just looking for
another job, there is more interest from the guys than the gals. Part
of that will be the male-oriented nature of the industry, part of it is
just the 'geekiness' of it (I don't know many female geeks either)

Another reason will get me into trouble, but I'll risk it anyway!

I did a psychology 101 course while at uni, and one of the things I
remember was the studies on how men and women think.

In general, the male brain is set up for highly efficient
single-tasking. You give a guy a problem and he can obsess about it to
the exclusion of all else, and get you a solution pretty quicky.

You give him two problems, and he either slows to a crawl, or handles
them one after the other.


Women are much better at multi-tasking. You give them the same problem
and they will take longer to solve it.(remember, bell curves here.
Many indivuals beat the tests for both sexes)

However, throw them 3 or 4 problems and they would solve them in not
much more than the same time for the first alone.


This also shows up in the 'soft' skills, where women are often better
at building social groups, where the guys can only focus on a single
conversation at a time.


Again, before someone jumps and runs away with wrong ideas, we are
talking statistics and populations here, many people of both sexes
break the stereotypes. But we are talking of women in the industry,
rather than the developer in the cubicle next door.

Personally, this suggests to me the industry is missing out big-time on
the female developer. Those same studies point out that they are much
better at all the teamwork and co-operative devlopment that are so
important in the industry today.

And if we are looking at solving complex problems, I believe that IQ
tests show a higher trend for women these days than men (which was not
the case when education was held back) so there is a lot of talent out
there the industry really should find a way to harness.

In the meantime, I'm just glad of the lack of competition. Makes me
look better ;? )

AlisdairM(TeamB)
[Contentious opinions all my own, representing no-one else in
particular]

[William Meyer]

Post by Jennifer Ashley Kuiper
Indeed! Also, when I type "meet the team" in the JBuilder about box,
I see lots of women, and not just in the marketing department. I know
"I met a female dev and she's good too...". That implies that most
are not. I am a female and I like programming. I just don't want
don't feel like constantly (re)considering that there is something
wrong with me.

Don't be overly sensitive about it. I've met many developers, and I've
met some who are good. Gender has not been a significant determinant
with respect to quality, but the number of women I have met in the
field has been quite small. If you were able to graph the effectiveness
of developers of both genders, I'm sure you'd see a bell-shaped curve
for each gender, and that the proportion of the population at any given
skill level would likely be similar.

If you enjoy what you're doing, and are good at it, then be happy. In
nearly 30 years of working in software development, I can't recall any
companies that would have made a selection based on gender when in need
of a skilled developer.

[Buch]

Post by Jennifer-Ashley Kuiper
You are not serious here, are you?

I'm. I did not meant to be offensive in any way, I just stated the fact. Not
only me, but also my friends, even from different countries,
has the same expirience.
I personally say only one female coder (I have 14 years in IT), she did some
SQL and stored procedures ...
and one hardware girl, she was reparing PC's.
I know reasons why there are only few femele developers around, but I fell I
will be missunderstood if I come out with them ...

[Jennifer Ashley Kuiper]

Post by Buch
I know reasons why there are only few femele developers around, but I fell I
will be missunderstood if I come out with them ...

I am curious anyway. ( most women are :) ) Could you share that with me? I
don't feel abused by your statements, don't worry.

Thanks,
Jenn

[Alessandro Federici]

Post by Jennifer Ashley Kuiper

Post by Buch
I know reasons why there are only few femele developers around, but I

fell

Post by Jennifer Ashley Kuiper
I

Post by Buch
will be missunderstood if I come out with them ...

I am curious anyway. ( most women are :) ) Could you share that with me? I
don't feel abused by your statements, don't worry.

Hi again <G>
I know you asked this to Buch, but your previous comment ("I just don't want
don't feel like constantly (re)considering that there is something wrong
with me.")
made me think something that is related to this. What if most girls that had
the remote idea of being coders stopped because of this fear? Most guys I
know wouldn't give a damn about something like that (=what others think
about them enough to make them believe there's something wrong with
themselves <G>) but then, since I haven't heard a comment like in years and
years and you brought this up in this context, I am wondering if that could
actually be forceful enough to stop a *girl* from doing something...

Back to you ;-)

[Jennifer Ashley Kuiper]

Post by Alessandro Federici
Back to you ;-)

Well, I must say that I have been looking over my shoulder ever since I got
involved in programming. I felt that guys were suspicious toward me, but
then again... that's what I was experiencing. That doesn't imply that it was
actually so. I think a minority such as the one I am being part of creates
it's own insecurities. And when you show unconfident, people tend to assume
that you're incompetent.

Bye,
Jenn

[Lori M Olson [TeamB]]

Post by Jennifer Ashley Kuiper

Post by Alessandro Federici
Back to you ;-)

Well, I must say that I have been looking over my shoulder ever since I got
involved in programming. I felt that guys were suspicious toward me, but
then again... that's what I was experiencing. That doesn't imply that it was
actually so. I think a minority such as the one I am being part of creates
it's own insecurities. And when you show unconfident, people tend to assume
that you're incompetent.
Bye,
Jenn

Women programmers are a minority. Just like women engineers. And for
similar reasons.

Part of it is just the old - guys tend to be better at the mathematical
and spatial relationships stuff. Note I say "tend to". That doesn't
mean that there aren't lots of women who do quite well in math, it's
just that there are a higher proportion of men with that skill/bias.

And then we have the old - women tend to do better in the "creative"
areas. Again, there are lots of guys who do well, but the proportions
of females with these skills is higher.

Last, because of the gender bias related above, we have well-meaning
guidance councilors in schools around the world, knowing these things,
and steering their boys and girls toward more "appropriate" career
choices. This is the one that burns me, and I think is mostly
responsible for the higher than expected skew in the numbers.

And, as a personal observation only, because of all of the above, the
females that buck the trend tend to do so only when they are _really
good_ at those skills, because otherwise it's just too hard. Similarly
for guys with creative skills.

Finally, to get back to the real subject of the thread... I don't think
that Borland is any better or worse at marketing to stereotypes than any
other software company. I've been to industry conferences all over
Canada and the U.S. and it's the same everywhere - booth babes (ie -
females who have no product knowledge but are just present to add
eye-candy appeal). Just once, it would be nice to see some booth beef
(ie - males who have no product knowledge but are just there for the
eye-candy appeal)!

[William Meyer]

Post by Jennifer Ashley Kuiper
Well, I must say that I have been looking over my shoulder ever since
I got involved in programming. I felt that guys were suspicious
toward me, but then again... that's what I was experiencing.

That reminds me of a maintenance engineer, a woman from Eastern Europe
who was very skilled, but who had not a suspicion, but a real hostility
to her male counterparts. Sadly, she spent a good deal of her time on
humiliating them.

Also, in my experience, the best engineers and developers have also
been the most supportive of all around them, and the most likely to
respond positively when there was need of any assistance. Those who
were less supportive were also generally those who were less capable.

In my own work, all I want is competent and skilled colleagues. I
couldn't care less what their size, shape, gender, or color might be.
It's too difficult finding good people to do anything so silly as to
discriminate against any good ones on the basis of superficial
characteristics -- the mind is the key.

[Buch]

Post by Jennifer Ashley Kuiper
I am curious anyway. ( most women are :) ) Could you share that with me? I

There are several reasons, IMO.

1. The difference between man and woman brain (we are speaking average) -
man's brain has more brain cells in cortex than female
brain, giving man advantage in abstract thinking (woman brain has better
link between halves, giving female advantage in perception (that is female
sixth sense)).
Since programing is all about abstract thinking ...
2. Historical female role in society, tradition, prejudices, exclusivity -
it is not enough that female has equal number of brain cells (some have) to
fairly compete, there is also barbie-doll education, and separation on man's
and women's jobs
3. Programing is difficult even for most man. And majority of man and woman,
often take easier way. Sales, marketing, mumbo-jumbo things .. :))

So, to become programer, woman has to have man-like brain (most does not
have), and strength to overcome tradition.
If woman is attractive, it is almost certain she will never code for life,
because she knows already that her look can help her better than abstract
thinking.

[Jennifer Ashley Kuiper]

I am too flabbergasted to even respond properly. Do all of you guys think
that way?

Post by Buch

Post by Jennifer Ashley Kuiper
I am curious anyway. ( most women are :) ) Could you share that with me? I

There are several reasons, IMO.
1. The difference between man and woman brain (we are speaking average) -
man's brain has more brain cells in cortex than female
brain, giving man advantage in abstract thinking (woman brain has better
link between halves, giving female advantage in perception (that is female
sixth sense)).
Since programing is all about abstract thinking ...
2. Historical female role in society, tradition, prejudices, exclusivity -
it is not enough that female has equal number of brain cells (some have) to
fairly compete, there is also barbie-doll education, and separation on man's
and women's jobs
3. Programing is difficult even for most man. And majority of man and woman,
often take easier way. Sales, marketing, mumbo-jumbo things .. :))
So, to become programer, woman has to have man-like brain (most does not
have), and strength to overcome tradition.
If woman is attractive, it is almost certain she will never code for life,
because she knows already that her look can help her better than abstract
thinking.

[Iman L Crawford]

Post by Jennifer Ashley Kuiper
I am too flabbergasted to even respond properly. Do all of you guys think
that way?

No.

[David Orriss, Jr. [TeamB]]

On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:33:48 +0200, "Jennifer Ashley Kuiper"

Post by Jennifer Ashley Kuiper
I am too flabbergasted to even respond properly. Do all of you guys think
that way?

No.. I don't think even *most* men do.

FWIW, one of the top JBuilder R&D engineers is a woman - and a great
programmer, too... I only mention it because this subject has come up
- not to prove a point...

I've never understood it, but for whatever reason, there are just
fewer women that go into the Computer Science field than men. And
that translates into seeing fewer of them in the workplace.



--
David Orriss Jr. *TeamB*
http://www.davenet.net/
* Please limit all responses to the newsgroups. Thanks! *
Got a JBuilder website? Join the JBuilder Netring! Check out
http://www.davenet.net/jbwebring/jbwebring.htm for more information!

Oh yea, I have a blog: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/daorriss/

Save yourself some time and check these sites:

Borland Newsgroup Search:
http://www.borland.com/newsgroups/ngsearch.html
Joi Ellis's Faq-O-Matic:
http://www.visi.com/~gyles19/fom-serve/cache/1.html

[John Jacobson]

Post by Jennifer Ashley Kuiper
I am too flabbergasted to even respond properly. Do all of you guys think
that way?

Post by Buch

Post by Jennifer Ashley Kuiper
I am curious anyway. ( most women are :) ) Could you share that with

me?

Post by Jennifer Ashley Kuiper
I

Post by Buch
There are several reasons, IMO.
1. The difference between man and woman brain (we are speaking average) -
man's brain has more brain cells in cortex than female
brain,

Even if that were true it would not tell us much about differences in
intellectual abilities or biases. It is pretty easy to see that brain size
is not a very good indicator of ability to program. If it was, then we
should have whales and elephants doing all our programming. Also, my parrot
has no cerebral cortex as far as I know, yet it has the intellectual
abilities of a young child that has a brain several times as large.

However, I think men and women tend to think *differently*. How much of this
difference is due to social factors and how due to any innate biological
differences is for sociologists and scientists to figure out over time.
After all those years of evolution there is bound to be sexual
differentiation. I think only a fool would deny that there is something
fundamentally different between the brains of men and women. If they were
the same then we would see more sexual parity among the ranks of the
criminally insane and the psychopathic. As it is, serial killers are almost
exclusively male. That is a fact. No matter how befuddled a person might be
by political correctness they have to admit that this fact requires
explanation, and simply citing a childhood of abuse doesn't work, since
females get as much abuse as children as males.

Programming currently is a very linear thing. Despite the possibilties for
parallel, non-linear programming offered by modern hardware, the software
still lingers in the linear realm. I suspect that if software were to become
less linear and more parallel in its very architecture and processes that
women would increase their representation in the ranks of programmers. Why?
Because men tend to think linearly and women tend to think parallelly (not a
word but it ought to be one). Down through the ages the feminine has been
the collective, nurturing, holistic context of the community while the
masculine has been the individualistic, adventuring hero, each too polarized
without the other. Men throughout history have operated in the context
created by women. These are of course coarse generalizations, but then we
ARE talking about general tendencies anyway. There are plenty of individual
exceptions.

But I keep coming back in my mind to the fact that serial killers are almost
exclusively male. If somebody is going to tell me that male and female
brains are the same, then they need to explain why females are markedly rare
in the ranks of the serial killers.

[Alessandro Federici]

[..] I think only a fool would deny that there is something
fundamentally different between the brains of men and women.
If they were the same then we would see more sexual parity among the ranks

of the

criminally insane and the psychopathic. As it is, serial killers are almost
exclusively male. That is a fact. No matter how befuddled a person might be
by political correctness they have to admit that this fact requires
explanation, and simply citing a childhood of abuse doesn't work, since
females get as much abuse as children as males.

Sorry, but this is a bit stretched. You cannot conclude the two brains are
different because of what you just said.
The two brains could be physhical the same, but the formation of make and
females is so different that could justify a tendency to violence for man.
That IMO is a much more probable explanation than getting into physical
differencies.

[..]

Men throughout history have operated in the context created by women.

You meant the opposite, right? Historically women have been the oppressed
ones, not the other way around.

[..]

But I keep coming back in my mind to the fact that serial killers are almost
exclusively male. If somebody is going to tell me that male and female
brains are the same, then they need to explain why females are markedly rare
in the ranks of the serial killers.

Because of what they were brought up to be: non violent persons or somebody
that should kick somebody else's ass to prove he's a man. Just think of
women in the army. Before it was "allowed", there were none. Following your
logic, one should think it is because women don't
(physically/psychologically) go along with that. Reality and modern times
prove the opposite: many women are now in the army for a choice. If you look
at the past of these women you will find many common patterns of growth.

[Paul Furbacher [TeamB]]

[ everything snipped ]

Okay, this is no longer of any relevance to
JBuilder non-technical issues. Please take
this discussion to

alt.discuss.female.male.pseudo.science.quackery

Thanks. Let's get back to JBuilder issues.
--
Paul Furbacher (TeamB)

Save time, search the archives:
http://www.borland.com/newsgroups/ngsearch.html

Is it in Joi Ellis's Faq-O-Matic?
http://www.visi.com/~gyles19/fom-serve/cache/1.html

Finally, please send responses to the newsgroup only.
That means, do not send email directly to me.
Thank you.

[Alessandro Federici]

Post by Jennifer Ashley Kuiper
I am too flabbergasted to even respond properly. Do all of you guys think
that way?

Well, not to that extent but I tend to agree with his point about the
historical role of females in society and the part that goes with beauty.
Let me clarify: I strongly believe that most of the character of a person is
formed during the first 15 years (many say the first 8 but I think that's a
bit short). If you look at most societies, females aren't really fed with
information oriented at stuff such as cars, motorcycles, computers, building
things (i.e. airplanes, computers, whatever). Most females are taught how to
cook, help in the house, think about romance, *responsibilities*, and stuff
like that. This is a very quick generalization but I think the point I am
trying to make is clear: society does give different inputs to the two sexes
during the formation years. Now that is IMO key in determining the kind of
activities they will choose during the rest of their life.

In my life, I found most women to be way more precise than guys in most
tasks but, at the same time, I noticed less inventive. I think that this has
a lot to do with the responsibilities item in my list of before: inventing
new things, starting over, ignoring what you've been told and trying your
own thing is a risk. Goes against what females are taught. Guys are usually
left with more independence and usually screw up much more while growing up:
so that element is part of their formation.

Ultimately I do not believe male and female are equal. They are very
*different*, because of their formation and the information they receive
during early ages. That said, different doesn't mean one is better than the
other. It just means *different* :-) The simple fact you care so much about
what others might think of you or how they make you feel is something that
really amazed me. I think most guys wouldn't give much thought to that (or
any) and would simply move to another place of work. Surely most wouldn't
get to the point of doubting of themselves (again, I am talking masses here,
not every guy out there).

For what concernes the beauty part, well, that is IMO asexual and, once
again, tied to what happened during the formation years. During that period
of life in which there are more hormons in the body than blood, most
beautiful looking boys and girls have certain chances that less-lucky ones
don't have, they have more opportunities to experience a different kind of
fun than sitting at home and programming, reading or whatever... You get the
idea. That forms carachters as well.

Back to you Jennifer

[Paul Furbacher [TeamB]]

[ everything snipped ]

Okay, this is no longer of any relevance to
JBuilder non-technical issues. Please take
this discussion to

alt.discuss.female.male.pseudo.science.quackery

Thanks. Let's get back to JBuilder issues.
--
Paul Furbacher (TeamB)

Save time, search the archives:
http://www.borland.com/newsgroups/ngsearch.html

Is it in Joi Ellis's Faq-O-Matic?
http://www.visi.com/~gyles19/fom-serve/cache/1.html

Finally, please send responses to the newsgroup only.
That means, do not send email directly to me.
Thank you.

[Jennifer Ashley Kuiper]

You're multi posting here, Paul. You *know* that's against the rules. :-))

Post by Paul Furbacher [TeamB]

[ everything snipped ]

Okay, this is no longer of any relevance to
JBuilder non-technical issues. Please take
this discussion to
alt.discuss.female.male.pseudo.science.quackery
Thanks. Let's get back to JBuilder issues.
--
Paul Furbacher (TeamB)
http://www.borland.com/newsgroups/ngsearch.html
Is it in Joi Ellis's Faq-O-Matic?
http://www.visi.com/~gyles19/fom-serve/cache/1.html
Finally, please send responses to the newsgroup only.
That means, do not send email directly to me.
Thank you.

[Buch]

OK, let me have one final post, so we can move on ...
There are some topics that I find more and more being avoided as "tabu
themes", meaning more people
thinks it is not civil to discuss them. Like genders, race, religious and
sexual preferences ...
I knew it was mistake to talk about it, however, it is not in my nature to
shut up. :(
It is not wise to talk about it, at least not in public, where is almost
certain somebody will be offended.
Such themes has certain "politically correct", default statements, and most
people tend to call me sexist, racist and nationalist by
automatism, when I say something that seems it is not compatible with
"politically correct general attitude".
Some people, in such occasions, tend to take opportunistic stand, by talking
default arguments ... but not being sincere.

Difference between brain structure is scientific fact. Team of scientists
took scanner and scanned male and female brains, and found
differences. This differences explains a lot.
That does not mean females are less worthy than males, it just shows that,
statistically, males are better in certain areas, while females are in
other.
Individual brains can vary, but when we speak in general, it is true.
Todays society is based on specialization anyway, so it is natural that one
specializes in area in which he/she is better.
Society is based (at least it should be) on equal opportunity, so it is up
to individual to asses if he/she can compete, and where are his/her chances.
I do not care about gender or race or nationality if person is competent.
But I also does not like less competent that opportunisticaly use his/her
gender/race/nationality to their advantage.

There was interesting remark about multitasking.
I think that, even when we have multitasking, single threads are still being
processed as linear, and to understand complex parallel processes, they need
to be decomposed. So we still have linearity.

[Harry Slaughter]

Post by Jennifer Ashley Kuiper
I am too flabbergasted to even respond properly. Do all of you guys think
that way?

I think most programmers (at least the male ones ;) think logically, yes.

I don't understand why the women in this thread are so worked up. It's
a fact that women constitute a minority of all programmers. It's also
a fact that men and women are different. There's nothing wrong or
offensive with either of those facts.

And the the fact that Borland markets mainly towards men shouldn't
bother you any more than the fact that Palmolive ads market mainly
towards women bothers me. Hey, I wash dishes too!

The bottom line is that over the last 10-20 years certain "minority"
groups (ie anyone who is not straight, white and male) have been
trained to bark "racist" or "sexist" or "bigot" anytime they hear
certain words or phrases, regardless of the truth or fiction inherent
to the comment.

I find it best to simply not use words like woman, black, mexican,
handicap, etc.. in any sentence containing adjectives.

[John Jacobson]

Post by Buch
Anyway, it is very rare thing to see, a female developer.
The are mainly in sales and customer support.

It is extremely rare to come across a female software developer here in the
U.S. too. In my entire career I can count on the fingers of one hand the
number I have actually worked with. The funny thing is that there is no
sexual discrimination going on the hiring process. There simply are very few
females looking for software developer jobs in the first place. I knew a lot
more female DBA's.

[Alessandro Federici]

"John Jacobson" <***@comcast.net> wrote in message news:40f6fc0d$***@newsgroups.borland.com...
[..]

Post by John Jacobson
It is extremely rare to come across a female software developer here in the
U.S. too.

Funny. With the exception of one in Mexico that I met a few weeks back, I've
never seen one *outside* the US ;-)

[Paul Furbacher [TeamB]]

[ everything snipped ]

Okay, this is no longer of any relevance to
JBuilder non-technical issues. Please take
this discussion to

alt.discuss.female.male.pseudo.science.quackery

Thanks. Let's get back to JBuilder issues.
--
Paul Furbacher (TeamB)

Save time, search the archives:
http://www.borland.com/newsgroups/ngsearch.html

Is it in Joi Ellis's Faq-O-Matic?
http://www.visi.com/~gyles19/fom-serve/cache/1.html

Finally, please send responses to the newsgroup only.
That means, do not send email directly to me.
Thank you.

[Paul Nichols (TeamB)]

Post by Alexandra Stehman
Hey there,
Just curious what's up with all the guys. I haven't yet seen a woman in
any of the new JBuilder ads (supposing it's supposed to be a play on the
new
Java Server "Faces" support in JBX1). Not that this is unusual, since
women are typically left out of the marketing campaigns for software
(although
kudos to IBM on a fantastic job representing us). Half our team is women,
and we're all a mix ethnically on top of that. If Borland wants to keep
up in the progressive market, they'd better learn to market a little more
progressively - especially since the market is changing rapidly and you
don't see so many male programmers as Borland's marketing team seems to
think you do.

I am always up to seeing scantily clad women. However, I despise them as
sales people, as I find my innate propensity is to never say, "NO" :)

[John Jacobson]

Post by Alexandra Stehman
Hey there,
Just curious what's up with all the guys. I haven't yet seen a woman in any
of the new JBuilder ads (supposing it's supposed to be a play on the new
Java Server "Faces" support in JBX1). Not that this is unusual, since women
are typically left out of the marketing campaigns for software (although
kudos to IBM on a fantastic job representing us). Half our team is women,
and we're all a mix ethnically on top of that. If Borland wants to keep up
in the progressive market, they'd better learn to market a little more
progressively - especially since the market is changing rapidly and you
don't see so many male programmers as Borland's marketing team seems to
think you do.

Have you ever been to a developer's conference? If so, look around and note
the proportion of male to female. Female software developers are a niche
market (pun not intended).

[Lori M Olson [TeamB]]

Post by John Jacobson
Have you ever been to a developer's conference? If so, look around and note
the proportion of male to female. Female software developers are a niche
market (pun not intended).

Yah, but there are advantages to that. Even at the most densely
attended JavaOne (25,000+), I never had to stand in line in the ladies
washroom. ;-)

[Paul Furbacher [TeamB]]

[ everything snipped ]

Sorry to spoil everyone's fun, but...

This is no longer of any relevance to
JBuilder non-technical issues. Please take
this discussion to

alt.discuss.female.male.pseudo.science.quackery

Thanks. Let's get back to JBuilder issues.
--
Paul Furbacher (TeamB)

Save time, search the archives:
http://www.borland.com/newsgroups/ngsearch.html

Is it in Joi Ellis's Faq-O-Matic?
http://www.visi.com/~gyles19/fom-serve/cache/1.html

Finally, please send responses to the newsgroup only.
That means, do not send email directly to me.
Thank you.