Choice of Development Tool / Language?

[Richard Morey]

Hi --

First off, let me apologize if cross-posting is against the rules. I was not
sure where to find "the rules."

We are a small software development company. We have a a web application we
originally built using Delphi 6 and webSnap. As the application grew through
the requirements of our client we began to build functionality in ASP pages
because it seemed much simplier and therefore quicker.

We now have a pretty complicated piece of software that we want to more or
less re-build from the ground up in easy to manage / change modules.

We are also in negotiation to purchase the source code of another piece of
software with a lot of similar functionality and so we would like to build
the two applications side by side and create modules for things such as
searching and editing customer info, etc.

The second application was built completely with ASP. Both applications
connect to MS SQL Server dbs.

My question is -- what is our best choice for a robust, stable, scalable
framework to build the next versions of these applications on? Should we go
with BDS 2006? If so, which framework? .NET? IntraWeb? WebSnap?

Other considerations are staying with ASP, but I prefer compiled code and
the ability to move across to other web servers and OSes.

What about .NET ? Will this be able to move to say Linux and Apache web
server?

We have discussed JBuilder and one of the Borland application servers but
none of our small programming team has an solid experience with Java. Most
of us have experience with C++ but that was some time ago, and of course
knowledge of JavaScript.

The important considerations for this project is being able to build modules
that we will be able to share data between and that will not reside in a
single compiled entity but rather a series of small compiled entities. We
also want to be able to build most of the user interface via standard HTML
editing software that does not require changes to the compiled code. In the
first version of our application we made the mistake of including much of
the outputted HTML in the webSnap application source code which causes
changes to be time consuming and also requires the code to be recompiled,
tested and the webserver to be stopped and restarted to update the
executable.

I know this may not be the right forum for these additional questions, but
what about non-Borland platforms such as Adobe Flex or Cold Fusion?

Thank you all for your feedback.


Rich

[Wayne Niddery [TeamB]]

Post by Richard Morey
First off, let me apologize if cross-posting is against the rules. I
was not sure where to find "the rules."

See the newsgroup guidelines at
http://info.borland.com/newsgroups/guide.html. I have set follow-up to
borland.public.delphi.non-technical only.

Post by Richard Morey
We are a small software development company. We have a a web
application we originally built using Delphi 6 and webSnap. As the
application grew through the requirements of our client we began to
build functionality in ASP pages because it seemed much simplier and
therefore quicker.
The second application was built completely with ASP. Both
applications connect to MS SQL Server dbs.
My question is -- what is our best choice for a robust, stable,
scalable framework to build the next versions of these applications
on? Should we go with BDS 2006? If so, which framework? .NET?
IntraWeb? WebSnap?
What about .NET ? Will this be able to move to say Linux and Apache
web server?

From your description, I would think .Net would fit best. BDS2006 gives you
the choice of Win32 native or .Net. I would recommend ASP.Net for the web
stuff, IntraWeb is also still there. Though it is possible for .Net, at
least server apps, to run on Linux (see Mono), I personally wouldn't
consider this a deciding factor. If your team has experience in Delphi then
IMO it would silly to start down the path of redoing everything in Java.
Currently Delphi only supports .Net 1.1, the next version is slated to fully
support .Net 2.0. If you go with BDS 2006 to start, be sure to invest in
Software Assurance - that will get you an upgrade to the next version at no
extra charge (assuming its out within 1 year of you purchase date).

[Rinse Lemstra]

Please have a (serious) look at www.morfik.com

regards,

Rinse

[Richard Morey]

Hi --

This looks like an interesting product. Is there any way to import an
exsisting SQL Server 2000 db into the system? I would like to bring in a few
tables and play around with some code.

Thanks,

Rich

Post by Rinse Lemstra
Please have a (serious) look at www.morfik.com
regards,
Rinse

[Relaxin]

Post by Richard Morey
Hi --
This looks like an interesting product. Is there any way to import an
exsisting SQL Server 2000 db into the system? I would like to bring in a
few tables and play around with some code.

They (morfik.com) should be coming out with a new beta release in about a
week.
It should also have ODBC support.

Native SQL Server support is promised in the near future.

[Paul Nichols (TeamB)]

Post by Richard Morey
Hi --
We are also in negotiation to purchase the source code of another piece of
software with a lot of similar functionality and so we would like to build
the two applications side by side and create modules for things such as
searching and editing customer info, etc.

It may be wise to find out what this other application was written in then.

Post by Richard Morey
The second application was built completely with ASP. Both applications
connect to MS SQL Server dbs.

I would think about buying something in standard ASP. I wouldn't do it, but
I do not know your business requirements either.

Post by Richard Morey
Other considerations are staying with ASP, but I prefer compiled code and
the ability to move across to other web servers and OSes.

If XPlatform is a necessity, then Java is the only way to go.

Post by Richard Morey
What about .NET ? Will this be able to move to say Linux and Apache web
server?

I would not bank on this. Mono offers a lot of the NET functionality in NET
1.1, but not all of it. Do not even think of Linux/Unix support with Net
2.0.

Post by Richard Morey
We have discussed JBuilder and one of the Borland application servers but
none of our small programming team has an solid experience with Java. Most
of us have experience with C++ but that was some time ago, and of course
knowledge of JavaScript.

Then you will definitely have a learning curve with Java. If you are
familiar with NET and C#, that will ease the transition.

Post by Richard Morey
The important considerations for this project is being able to build
modules that we will be able to share data between and that will not
reside in a single compiled entity but rather a series of small compiled
entities.

That is what OOP or OO is all about.

Post by Richard Morey
We also want to be able to build most of the user interface via
standard HTML editing software that does not require changes to the
compiled code.

HTML itself, is not compiled. However, using straight HTML is going to lock
you in somewhat. There are good frameworks that will allow this in the Java
world, with some custom tag libraries (like Tapestry and/or FrameMarker).

Post by Richard Morey
In the first version of our application we made the mistake
of including much of the outputted HTML in the webSnap application source
code which causes changes to be time consuming and also requires the code
to be recompiled, tested and the webserver to be stopped and restarted to
update the executable.

Sounds like you need a good framework. Look at Stripes, Struts, and Java
Server Faces. If you want more of an HTML templating language, then
Tapestry or FrameMarker might be worth a looksie. Again these are Java only
frameworks. One more that is worthy of consideration is Spring.

Post by Richard Morey
I know this may not be the right forum for these additional questions, but
what about non-Borland platforms such as Adobe Flex or Cold Fusion?

Flex is ok, if you want your user to download (or can be assured they can
download and install Flash plugins). It all depends on who your users are.

Many companies will not allow regular users to download and install software
on their local boxes. If this is a criteria, then I would stay away from
plug in based technologies. If you can control the client environment and
specify that plugins are a requirement, then it may be something you wish
to look at.
That being said, AJAX can basically give you what Flex offers. Not quite a
pretty, but similar in functionality.

[Viatcheslav V. Vassiliev]

For cross-platform web applications with your requirements I would recommend
PHP. You will have to install PHP on Windows servers where your application
will run, but this should not be a problem.

//------------------------------------------
Regards,
Vassiliev V. V.
http://www.managed-vcl.com - using .Net objects in Delphi for Win32 +
ADO.Net
http://www.oledbdirect.com - The fastest way to access MS SQL Server,
MS Jet (Access) and Interbase (through OLEDB)

Post by Richard Morey
Hi --
First off, let me apologize if cross-posting is against the rules. I was
not sure where to find "the rules."
We are a small software development company. We have a a web application
we originally built using Delphi 6 and webSnap. As the application grew
through the requirements of our client we began to build functionality in
ASP pages because it seemed much simplier and therefore quicker.
We now have a pretty complicated piece of software that we want to more or
less re-build from the ground up in easy to manage / change modules.
We are also in negotiation to purchase the source code of another piece of
software with a lot of similar functionality and so we would like to build
the two applications side by side and create modules for things such as
searching and editing customer info, etc.
The second application was built completely with ASP. Both applications
connect to MS SQL Server dbs.
My question is -- what is our best choice for a robust, stable, scalable
framework to build the next versions of these applications on? Should we
go with BDS 2006? If so, which framework? .NET? IntraWeb? WebSnap?
Other considerations are staying with ASP, but I prefer compiled code and
the ability to move across to other web servers and OSes.
What about .NET ? Will this be able to move to say Linux and Apache web
server?
We have discussed JBuilder and one of the Borland application servers but
none of our small programming team has an solid experience with Java. Most
of us have experience with C++ but that was some time ago, and of course
knowledge of JavaScript.
The important considerations for this project is being able to build
modules that we will be able to share data between and that will not
reside in a single compiled entity but rather a series of small compiled
entities. We also want to be able to build most of the user interface via
standard HTML editing software that does not require changes to the
compiled code. In the first version of our application we made the mistake
of including much of the outputted HTML in the webSnap application source
code which causes changes to be time consuming and also requires the code
to be recompiled, tested and the webserver to be stopped and restarted to
update the executable.
I know this may not be the right forum for these additional questions, but
what about non-Borland platforms such as Adobe Flex or Cold Fusion?
Thank you all for your feedback.
Rich

[Jeroen Wenting]

Post by Viatcheslav V. Vassiliev
For cross-platform web applications with your requirements I would recommend
PHP. You will have to install PHP on Windows servers where your application
will run, but this should not be a problem.

PHP is hardly appropriate for non-trivial applications.

[Relaxin]

Post by Viatcheslav V. Vassiliev
For cross-platform web applications with your requirements I would
recommend PHP. You will have to install PHP on Windows servers where your
application will run, but this should not be a problem.

If you are going to consider PHP then you should look at Ruby.
http://www.rubyonrails.org/

It has native SQL Server support.

[Lori M Olson [TeamB]]

Post by Relaxin

Post by Viatcheslav V. Vassiliev
For cross-platform web applications with your requirements I would
recommend PHP. You will have to install PHP on Windows servers where your
application will run, but this should not be a problem.

If you are going to consider PHP then you should look at Ruby.
http://www.rubyonrails.org/
It has native SQL Server support.

I'll second that recommendation. I've been doing RoR work since last
October. Rails rocks.
--
Regards,

Lori Olson [TeamB]

------------

Save yourself, and everyone else, some time and search the
newsgroups and the FAQ-O-Matic before posting your next
question.

Google Advanced Newsgroup Search
http://www.google.ca/advanced_group_search
Other Newsgroup Searches:
http://www.borland.com/newsgroups/ngsearch.html
Joi Ellis's FAQ-O-Matic:
http://www.visi.com/~gyles19/fom-serve/cache/1.html

[Brian Moelk]

Post by Lori M Olson [TeamB]

Post by Relaxin
It has native SQL Server support.

I'll second that recommendation. I've been doing RoR work since last
October. Rails rocks.

I'll third it; but IMO if one chooses RoR, SQL Server is a strange
choice simply because it limits your platform (at least on the db
machine). It effectively neutralizes one of the benefits of RoR: cross
platform.

RoR can move between different backends fairly easily, but I recommend
using PostgreSQL with RoR from the start.

[Lori M Olson [TeamB]]

Post by Brian Moelk

Post by Lori M Olson [TeamB]

Post by Relaxin
It has native SQL Server support.

I'll second that recommendation. I've been doing RoR work since last
October. Rails rocks.

I'll third it; but IMO if one chooses RoR, SQL Server is a strange
choice simply because it limits your platform (at least on the db
machine). It effectively neutralizes one of the benefits of RoR: cross
platform.

Choosing SQL Server on Windows does not limit RoR's cross platform
ability. We develop on Macs with MySQL, but deploy on test and
production servers which are RedHat Linux with Oracle. As long as you
stick to ANSI SQL, at those rare times when you actually need to write
SQL, you should not have a problem.

Post by Brian Moelk
RoR can move between different backends fairly easily, but I recommend
using PostgreSQL with RoR from the start.

--
Regards,

Lori Olson [TeamB]

------------

Save yourself, and everyone else, some time and search the
newsgroups and the FAQ-O-Matic before posting your next
question.

Google Advanced Newsgroup Search
http://www.google.ca/advanced_group_search
Other Newsgroup Searches:
http://www.borland.com/newsgroups/ngsearch.html
Joi Ellis's FAQ-O-Matic:
http://www.visi.com/~gyles19/fom-serve/cache/1.html

[Brian Moelk]

Post by Lori M Olson [TeamB]
As long as you
stick to ANSI SQL, at those rare times when you actually need to write
SQL, you should not have a problem.

"As long as...should not have a problem." ;) Despite my skepticism at
theoretical "shoulds", I agree.

But why *choose* SQL Server for RoR? IMO, the only reason to develop
RoR using a SQL Server backend is because one already has a *licensed*
SQL Server in use. IMO, it muddies the deployment waters when there are
many capable cross-platform free databases around.

In the context of this thread, the OP does have an existing DB with MS
SQL, but in this case I would make clear that Rails might *not* be the
best choice since it prefers to have a database structured its way (and
yes, it is possible to handle this, but IMO you lose some of Rail's
appeal if you have to muck around in field mappings).

[Arthur Hoornweg]

Post by Brian Moelk
I'll third it; but IMO if one chooses RoR, SQL Server is a strange
choice simply because it limits your platform (at least on the db
machine). It effectively neutralizes one of the benefits of RoR: cross
platform.

The original poster said nothing about cross-platform.

Also I deduct from his posting that they have experience with MSSQL,
so why not use that experience?

Moreover, it would be bad practice (if not irresponsible) to host the DB
and the web engine on the same machine anyway. Assuming the
web engine can be reached from the internet...

[Lori M Olson [TeamB]]

Post by Arthur Hoornweg
The original poster said nothing about cross-platform.

<quote>
Other considerations are staying with ASP, but I prefer compiled code and
the ability to move across to other web servers and OSes.

What about .NET ? Will this be able to move to say Linux and Apache web
server?
</quote>
--
Regards,

Lori Olson [TeamB]

------------

Save yourself, and everyone else, some time and search the
newsgroups and the FAQ-O-Matic before posting your next
question.

Google Advanced Newsgroup Search
http://www.google.ca/advanced_group_search
Other Newsgroup Searches:
http://www.borland.com/newsgroups/ngsearch.html
Joi Ellis's FAQ-O-Matic:
http://www.visi.com/~gyles19/fom-serve/cache/1.html

[Richard Morey]

Hi --

What is Ruby on Rails? I will take a look.. I don't think the PHP is a
strong consideration as we have no PHP experience on our team.

Additionally, I think we have decided we would like to have compiled code so
as to better protect our intellectual property -- we may not always be able
to provide hosting services and so we don't want to have to install an app
that is basically "source code."

Thanks everyone for your feed back so far!

Rich

Post by Relaxin

Post by Viatcheslav V. Vassiliev
For cross-platform web applications with your requirements I would
recommend PHP. You will have to install PHP on Windows servers where your
application will run, but this should not be a problem.

If you are going to consider PHP then you should look at Ruby.
http://www.rubyonrails.org/
It has native SQL Server support.

[Andreas Prucha]

Post by Richard Morey
Hi --
What is Ruby on Rails? I will take a look.. I don't think the PHP is a
strong consideration as we have no PHP experience on our team.
Additionally, I think we have decided we would like to have compiled
code so as to better protect our intellectual property -- we may not
always be able to provide hosting services and so we don't want to
have to install an app that is basically "source code."

You mean you cannot always host the product for the customers? I think this
would be a good reason to use PHP. It's available on almost all webspaces
and also easy to install on an intranet-server. And it's possible to
compile php into pseudo-code.

[Andreas Prucha]

Post by Viatcheslav V. Vassiliev
For cross-platform web applications with your requirements I would
recommend PHP. You will have to install PHP on Windows servers where
your application will run, but this should not be a problem.

I agree. PHP caused me some headache recently, but finally it seems to be
the best choice for internet/intranet-applications at the moment - esp. if
you do not want to be bound to a specific platform.

[Relaxin]

Post by Andreas Prucha

Post by Viatcheslav V. Vassiliev
For cross-platform web applications with your requirements I would
recommend PHP. You will have to install PHP on Windows servers where
your application will run, but this should not be a problem.

I agree. PHP caused me some headache recently, but finally it seems to be
the best choice for internet/intranet-applications at the moment - esp. if
you do not want to be bound to a specific platform.

Ruby also works on multi-platforms and 2 new .NET versions are coming.
One looks like it's sponsored by Microsoft.
http://plas.fit.qut.edu.au/Ruby.NET/ (.NET native compiling)
http://www.sapphiresteel.com/

But, unfortunately it you need to co-locate your server, I don't think you
will find much support...yet.

[Andreas Prucha]

Post by Relaxin
Ruby also works on multi-platforms and 2 new .NET versions are coming.

I do not really trust ms when it comes to x-platform. MS may use the image
of .net as beeing x-platform for PR now, but I am quite sure that they will
make the life of all alternative platforms as difficult as possible as soon
they really run.

Post by Relaxin
One looks like it's sponsored by Microsoft.

Which does not really make me trust it.

Post by Relaxin
http://plas.fit.qut.edu.au/Ruby.NET/ (.NET native compiling)
http://www.sapphiresteel.com/

[Brian Moelk]

Post by Relaxin
Ruby also works on multi-platforms and 2 new .NET versions are coming.
One looks like it's sponsored by Microsoft.
http://plas.fit.qut.edu.au/Ruby.NET/ (.NET native compiling)
http://www.sapphiresteel.com/

Let's not muddy the waters by bringing in .NET with Ruby. Ruby itself
is very platform independent. The first thing you listed is very
different from the second. AFIAK, the second has nothing with .NET
except that it simply uses the VS.NET IDE.

Post by Relaxin
But, unfortunately it you need to co-locate your server, I don't think you
will find much support...yet.

That's not true at all. There are many hosting companies for Rails out
there and more added all the time. I will say that hosting Rails
applications is more difficult than hosting PHP apps and PHP certainly
has the widest/inexpensive hosting support.

[Graham]

The hosting company for my personal website (dreamhost.com) is cheap
(~$8/month), yet has excellent resources (20 GB storage, unlimited
domains/subdomains/databases, Subversion and Jabber servers, Ruby, PHP 4
AND 5, instant installs of wiki, CMS and other software...).

You can set up a Ruby On Rails application easily, because both Ruby and
Rails are pre-installed. It's only a matter of creating and filling the
app directory.

I have no commercial interest in DreamHost, except that I'm a very
satisfied customer, and I continue to be impressed by their ongoing
upgrades and improvements (like being able to restore databases from a
backup YOURSELF!).

Post by Brian Moelk

Post by Relaxin
Ruby also works on multi-platforms and 2 new .NET versions are coming.
One looks like it's sponsored by Microsoft.
http://plas.fit.qut.edu.au/Ruby.NET/ (.NET native compiling)
http://www.sapphiresteel.com/

Let's not muddy the waters by bringing in .NET with Ruby. Ruby itself
is very platform independent. The first thing you listed is very
different from the second. AFIAK, the second has nothing with .NET
except that it simply uses the VS.NET IDE.

Post by Relaxin
But, unfortunately it you need to co-locate your server, I don't think you
will find much support...yet.

That's not true at all. There are many hosting companies for Rails out
there and more added all the time. I will say that hosting Rails
applications is more difficult than hosting PHP apps and PHP certainly
has the widest/inexpensive hosting support.

[Craig Stuntz [TeamB]]

Post by Viatcheslav V. Vassiliev
You will have to install PHP on Windows servers where your
application will run, but this should not be a problem.

"Shouldn't."

http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz/archive/2006/06/09/InstallingDokuWiki
.aspx

To make a long story short: The (current) MSI puts PHP.INI in the
wrong place, and PHP doesn't tell you what the problem is when it can't
find it.

PHP works fine for me once the INI file is in the right place.

[Craig Stuntz [TeamB]]

Post by Richard Morey
First off, let me apologize if cross-posting is against the rules. I
was not sure where to find "the rules."

It is. Here's the rules:

http://support.borland.com/entry.jspa?externalID=293